A FaceBook discussion about health care reform

Margaret Flowers

In Vermont, single-payer health care in a single state

www.stateline.org

Vermont is pondering implementation of an exclusive government-run health care program within its own borders. If it goes ahead, the whole country will be watching.

[Note: there has been a lot of discussion on this facebook post by Margaret Flowers. I am publishing some of my comments made here.]


Alan L. Maki 

Tommy Douglas started implementing socialized health care in Saskatchewan. The federal government got afraid and agreed to a single-payer system because they didn't want people demanding socialized health care. Shortly before Tommy Douglasdied in one of his very last speeches he reminded Canadians that only socialized health care would fully provide for their health care needs.

I seriously doubt what is being considered in Vermont is along the lines of Canada's single-payer system judging from the people they brought in to offer advice.

My question: If they really wanted single-payer why wouldn't they bring in the Canadians to teach them how to set up a system like the one in Canada?

Here in Minnesota a phony single-payer piece of legislation has been developed that will cost people over $700.00 a month. People here in Minnesota have stated very clearly at every opportunity they prefer socialized health care but will settle for a health care system like the Canadians have.

It was the intent of Frances Perkins to include a socialized healthcare system financed like Social Security as part of the New Deal. This is what we should be looking at not these phony schemes like in Vermont or the scheme being proposed here in Minnesota. But, as a first step towards socialized health care we should e looking at nothing less than what the Canadians have.

Perhaps more important than anything in Canada was that a thoroughly reactionary and corrupt federal government--- not unlike what we have in our country today--- was deathly afraid of the rising prestige and popularity of Tommy Douglas and his socialists and they made the decision that they would take away from Tommy Douglas the issue he had--- socialized health care--- that was possibly bring socialism to Canada.

This issue brought forward by a new socialist oriented party here in the United States at a time like this where we have wars raging, a crumbling capitalist economy with massive unemployment and poverty with a population insisting on real health care reform should be telling us now is the time to launch efforts to establish a party similar to Canada's socialist New Democratic Party.

If a National Public Health Care System is brought before the American people as the way to "kill two birds with one stone"--- ending these dirty wars to pay for public health care which would create around ten-million jobs providing the American people free health care I think this government is going to do just what the federal government in Canada did... they begged Tommy Douglas to accept single payer. Canadians still love Tommy Douglas.

The former New Democratic Party Premier of Manitoba, Howard Pawley, has a new book coming out... Howard Pawley expanded the single-payer system by putting a dental office in every single elementary school providing completely free dental care to children... Pawley also created a Provincially owned and managed auto insurance program--- the private for profit insurance companies literally wanted to kill the man... he required around he clock armed protection in a province that is traditionally so friendly the offices of provincial politicians are open to everyone.

Today, thanks to the socialist New Democratic Party, Manitoba's health care system is well on its way--- step by step--- to becoming a socialized health care system.

I don't understand why we aren't bringing NDP provincial legislators and its Minister of Health to the United States to explain to the American people how Canadians get quality health care for less that what we pay into Social Security.

Mike; how can we support an unknown? This is what continues to happen... people get desperate and they support things without looking into things. Other than the name "single-payer health care" what do you see so far that would lead you to support anything about what is only being proposed for discussion here? This is the way we got saddled with Obama... he was portrayed the way people wanted to hear; did people get what they thought they were voting for? Far from it. Not only that, how will people in Vermont have input into this? Does anyone know what these two fellas have done in other places? Where they are coming from as far as what they believe health care reform to be? I don't see any of these facts here.

I still can't understand why no one has drafted a good solid piece of legislation that can be taken to congress and state legislators. Te Canada Health Act is online and fully explained in a way just about anyone can comprehend what the legislation consists of; nothing complicated or complex. Is there a reason we can't use this as a template for legislation here?

HR 676 is dead; now is the time to bring people together to discuss what "we the people" want to see as far as real health care reform. We need to develop the kind of movement now that can go to politicians and say "this is what the American people want."

We have played games with these politicians for so long they aren't taking us seriously any more.

If all possible options are placed before people they will choose "VA for all" every single time. VA is the very best socialized health care in the world when it is adequately funded according to mandate. The Indian Health Service is right up there with VA but much more "people friendly" except it is severely underfunded, understaffed with too few adequate community health centers. Why are we refusing to consider these systems to take to the American people? I will tell you why. The leadership of the health care reform movement has been far too interested in pleasing the politicians not wanting to alienate them. This has been a losing strategy. In Canada the federal government was forced by a large and growing movement to come to Tommy Douglas for a deal.

Here in the United States we are a far wealthier country than Canada; we should have an even better health care system than what the Canadians have.

Tommy Douglas never to his ideas for health care to the politicians; he took his ideas to the people of Saskatchewan who in turn took the ideas to friends and relatives all over Canada. An aware people fully conscious of what they specifically want in the way of health care reform will let the politicians know in no uncertain terms what they want.



Mike, we have been trying. You will notice that the Minnesota Democratic Farmer-Labor Party (MNDFL) has the most advanced resolution in support of single-payer universal health care of any political party or organization in the United States. I wrote the resolution that was passed by 72% of the delegates of the state convention after a very prolonged fight to get it passed.

HOWEVER, ever since this resolution passed it has been under constant attack by the corporate dominated leadership of the MNDFL and not one single one of the organizations you list will defend this resolution which became part of the MNDFL Action Agenda. Instead, PDA and PNHP have given their support to the thoroughly right-wing and reactionary Minnesota Health Plan authored by MN State Senator John Marty which would require Minnesotans to pay premiums upwards of $700.00 a month. PDA and PNHP say that I am wrong in the costs; however, neither they nor John Marty nor anyone else will publicly state the monthly premium cost to Minnesotans. Now, for some well-heeled, middle class intellectuals and doctors $700.00 may not be a lot of money and it is probably much less than they are paying now, and there is no doubt the coverage provided is excellent--- I mean the coverage can't be beat; it provides more than the Canada Health Act. But, is this affordable to working class families? Families who are now losing their homes and farms to foreclosures and evictions, the growing numbers of unemployed, people who are still struggling to pay last year's heating bills; working people who already are forced to work two or three poverty wage jobs? Native American Indians would not even be covered even though they are continually being denied the health care services Congress requires because the same United States Congress that demands and mandates a certain level of services be provided will not allocate the funding for those services and in some cases people are being forced to drive hundreds of miles to get the care mandated by Congress and the Minnesota Health Act will not allow for Native Americans Indians to avail themselves of the local health care all other Minnesotans would get.

I personally requested that both PDA and PNHP "certify" in writing what their spokespersons are stating verbally and in their e-mails and web site postings that the proposed Minnesota Health Act is the kind of single-payer universal health care they would find acceptable for everyone in the United States. Both PDA and PNHP REFUSE to certify the Minnesota Health Act as such.

There is no reason, living in the wealthiest--- and most technologically advanced--- country in the world, Minnesotans or anyone else should have to pay one single penny for health care of any kind when the country is fighting very costly, murderous wars in three countries that are illegal, immoral and unconstitutional that the vast majority of the people are opposed to while this undemocratic and corrupt Wall Street  street serving government maintains over 800 U.S. military bases on foreign soil to protect a bunch of two-bit half-assed fascist dictators serving Wall Street's interests which are limited to exploiting labor and raping and plundering Mother Nature.

Why should we lower the bar of the kind of health care reform we need--- and are entitled to--- to try to accommodate politicians  who view MN State Senator John Marty's Minnesota Health Act and Obama's "Health Insurance and Pharmaceutical Industry Bailout and Profit Maximization Act of 2010" as their idea of "health care reform" while the Wall Street Journal reports that doctors have been given free reign to set the fees paid to them through Medicare?

Now, you ask me what my idea is of health care reform and that I should "lead by example." Well, Mike; the union I work for (without any help or support--- in fact opposition from PDA and PNHP--- put me on the road at great expense visiting all 87 counties in Minnesota to recruit people to run as delegates to the Minnesota DFL State Convention... we were successful in passing our resolution after over 200 precinct caucuses supported this resolution--- actually around 160 passed resolutions calling for a "comprehensive, all-inclusive, no-fee/no-premium, publicly funded, publicly administered and publicly delivered health care system." We agreed, as a compromise, to go with "single-payer universal health care" like the Canadians have. Within seconds of this resolution passing, Amy Klobuchar stormed from the convention floor in a fit of anger and went to the media red-baiting me and attacking the resolution declaring that she would never run for the United States Senate on such a "radical, left-wing platform undermining a free-market health care system." Klobuchar and the majority of the DFL politicians in Minnesota will support nothing other than "affordable universal health care for all;" in other words Senator John Marty's Minnesota Health Act--- which is not single payer in any way shape or form even though he went around the state calling it such in order to gain support.

Now, in order to accommodate Minnesota's DFL politicians, the majority of whom are from the "Business Caucus;" the MNDFL Progressive Caucus, affiliated through membership with PDA with members from PNHP, turned around and stabbed us in the back attaching a resolution to our single-payer resolution that includes "affordable."

Now, when John Marty set out to use a series of public forums to promote his Minnesota Health Act as "affordable single-payer" as part of his campaign for governor, I publicly announced that I was going to be present at the last half of these forums asking Senator--- wannabe governor--- John Marty how much his plan was going to cost Minnesotans... and, lo and behold, the good senator cancelled the rest of his forums.

This is the kind of treachery we are up against in the struggle for real health care reform and that is not going to change unless we do just as Tommy Douglas did in Canada--- he set the Canadian people loose in demanding real health care reform--- socialized health care.

Now, the argument--- more like a feeble and pathetic excuse for not leaving a comfort zone--- is that the American the American people will never support socialized health care. This is an outright lie because I don't see or hear one single politician or one single-Tea Bagger calling for the VA to be abolished nor do I see anyone rejecting its services. Ditto for the Indian Health Service and the National Public Health Service which so many people involved in the single-payer movement seem to want to not mention we have; why? Because it is doctors and nurses working on a salary for the government--- socialism! Not to mention the growing number of free health care clinics.

I was being dragged out of U.S. Senate Committee hearings along with my fellow trade union activists way back in 1972 by Federal Marshalls upon the orders of Senator Edward Kennedy during hearings on health care reform so I don't need to be lectured about how I should lead the way by example.

Mike, I do not want to see more "Obama-care" in the form of phony single-payer.

Have you forgotten already that PDA and the "Progressives for Obama" helped sell Obama on the basis that he was for single-payer universal health care? Just like they sold us on the idea he was for peace?

I am not insulting you by suggesting that we--- everyone involved in the struggles for health care reform--- is entitled to see what is in the Vermont plan and all these other plans before jumping in supporting something just because someone calls it "single-payer;" just like a lot of people and politicians call themselves liberals, progressive or left to get elected and then they rule from the Wall Street right.

Mike, you and the PNHP and Progressives for Obama and the Progressive Democrats of America can download the Canada Health Act just as easily as I can living three miles south of the Canadian border--- Obama has not yet restricted your ability to do that under the guise of "net neutrality" but he may; so download it today and distribute it widely.

I also have a suggested form of legislation that should guide the development of health care on my blog on the Organizing for America website... check it out.


Alan L. Maki 

I forgot to post the link to my blog on Organizing for America:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/alanmaki/gGxbJM

This was created on the basis of my discussions and conversations with people all across Minnesota. I spent an entire spring, summer and fall meeting with Minnesotans in their homes, in union halls, in church basements, community centers and even at picnics in public parks and on beaches; here is the introduction; I also "tabled," leafleted and petitioned as I traveled Minnesota... I am not boasting when I say that I know most Minnesotans want this. In fact, many Republicans came up to me after reading the material I was distributing and said things like, "You must be some kind of socialist or communist; I don't support either one--- except when it comes to health care." Of course Minnesota has had two socialist governors and a third who was nicknamed "Red" Rudy Perpich... and let me assure you the "red" was not in reference to the color of his hair... but, then again, Vermont does at the present time have an avowed socialist as a United States Senator in Bernie Sanders so I would think it would be appropriate to expose the people of Vermont to some ideas like this about health care reform so that ALL options have been discussed prior to making any decisions on health care reform. Remember, this is posted on Obama's own website:

Health Care Reform... a real proposal for change

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/alanmaki/gGxbJM

By Alan L. Maki - Jan 5, 2009 

Minnesota’s politicians have reneged on their repeated pre-election promises for health care reform for the last 60 years.

Quite frankly, we are fed up with this foot-dragging amid all kinds of phony schemes they have concocted in the name of reform which seek to put the burden of health care costs on the backs of the working class instead of where the primary burden belongs--- on those who profit from the labor of working people.

We thought we would help guide Minnesota politicians along in their efforts to achieve health care reform.

Health care is a human right.

Introducing a real solution to the present health care mess created by a profit driven system which places profits before the health care needs of people.

People before profits.

A proposal for real health care reform legislation from the working people of Minnesota.

Introducing the:

Roger Jourdain – Rudy Perpich – Floyd B. Olson – Elmer A. Benson Memorial Public Health Care System Act

read on: http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/alanmaki/gGxbJM




Mike Hersh 

Alan to clarify--I am not lecturing you. You have said that only your way is worthy, and others' efforts are "phony" or otherwise suspect. This is not about who is trying. We're all trying. No one is saying you're not trying.

I am asking you to show us a concrete accomplishment, some evidence of success, anything that's made a real difference. Everyone is "trying." All the organizations I've listed table, appear at events, protest, rally etc. PNHP doctors and their allies were also "dragged out of U.S. Senate Committee hearings," just as you were. PDA challenges elected officials and party officials, just as you have.

Unless and until you can demonstrate success, what is your basis for saying your approach is worthy, but PDA's, PNHP's and others' efforts are not? If your approach disavows efforts to work with elected officials, who do you expect will legislate to make your goals into law?

Mike; I take it you set the bar at the same height for yourself to jump over?

You say:

"Unless and until you can demonstrate success, what is your basis for saying your approach is worthy, but PDA's, PNHP's and others' efforts are not? If your approach disavows efforts to work with elected officials, who do you expect will legislate to make your goals into law?"

First of all I never said no one else's efforts are not worthy. I have taken issue with a couple very specific concerns I have which you have chosen not to respond to.

I have always promoted single-payer universal health care (like they have in Canada) as a first step towards socialized health care--- there might be dozens of steps over many years before this is achieved in this country.

However; I will say this in defense of my pushing for a National Public Health Care System at this particular time. I think the time is right because of the massive unemployment we have in this country at this time which NOT ONE SINGLE ONE of those organizations you have noted have not considered. Single-payer would create about three-million new jobs; unemployment is around 14-million to 20-million depending on what figures are used. Well, a National Public Health Care System would require around 800 major health care facilities serving around 30,000 community health care centers. This would mean around ten-million new jobs putting people to work providing people with health care they require based upon need completely free of charge.

(By-the-way, a little off topic; but a similar National Public Child Care System would create 3,000,000 to 5,000,000 new jobs)

The real question is this: an a National Public Health Care System be packaged and framed in such a way that the American people will be so enthusiastic about it that they will make it impossible for members of Congress not to go along with this?

I am suggesting nothing new. What I am suggesting is the exact same thing that Frances Perkins recommended when she was FDR's Secretary of Labor. The AMA accused Perkins of Bolshevism. The AMA told Perkins she was working from the pages of the Communist Manifesto. To these charges and accusations Perkins stood her ground and responded: I would rather see these programs helping people and providing people what they need instead of remaining words on the pages of some old pamphlet.

Now, I would suggest that progressives of today act with the same kind of courage that this heroic liberal displayed back in 1934.

What I am saying to you, Mike; and everyone else struggling in one way or another for health care reform is that it is not honest to not place all solutions to this health care mess before the American people.

The real problem here is not that anyone is "wrong;" the problem is the dishonesty of depriving the American people with an option they are entitled to hear and have access to.

Until a National Public Health Care System is placed before the American people we simply can't say what way we need to be moving on health care reform.

You then go on to ask me to prove that what I am suggesting works.

Well, Mike, I don't have to offer you or anyone else proof that what I am saying works or that the American people will rally to a call for a National Public Health Care System. You are obviously intentionally ignoring the facts I have very clearly stated.

We have the VA, Indian Health Service and the National Public Health Service not to mention the thousands of county health services, the hundreds of "free clinics" and the many union health care clinics and centers all of which work very well--- none of which are based upon "single-payer universal health care" but are based upon exactly what I am suggesting we are all entitled to--- a National Public Health Care System.

Mike, it is up to you to prove to us that your single-payer system will work better than VA, the Indian Health Service, the National Public Health Service or any of the other health services I have mentioned--- all of which work just fine and not one single politician or anyone using these fine health care services is saying they should be dismantled.

I have demonstrated success to you, Mike. Can you now demonstrate similar success to me?

I challenge anyone to step forward and dispute me--- or Frances Perkins.

The major sticking point that always comes up is: How are we going to finance and fund such a system?

We can end these stupid dirty wars to pay for it and still have money left over for child care.

We can close down the more than 800 U.S. military bases around the globe.

We can tax the hell out of the rich.

We can tax all Wall Street transactions.

As a last resort or in combination with the other suggestions, we can pay for the entire thing with a payroll tax just like Social Security.

Have I demonstrated the "success" of my approach to health care to your satisfaction, Mike?

You know, if we had a foreign policy based upon peace without thinking we have to fight the entire world which keeps us in a perpetual state of wars... we could probably just about convert the VA into taking care of all of our health care needs... just thought I would put a little something more on your plate to mull over.

For Wall Street peace may not yield the kind of dividends that war does; but, when it comes to things like health care and child care their are huge peace dividends to be had.